The Facebook debacle & other issues

So dissapointed. Your speech only sounds like some hardcore fans went to cry at your shoulder. As you said, everything was fine, we were discussing politely, and now we can't discuss the social problems with Danny's speeches and his false inclusivity, etc.? Why? Because a hardcore fan can't handle it? That was exaclty the problem with the FB group, the will to silence those who were pointing problems. It not ended well.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Nyx Whitestar

Ultimately it's hard to differentiate between Danny the person, and his company, as he puts so much of his person in what he writes on social media (and product descriptions even).
 

I think that as long as everyone remains civil in their discourse, it should be ok to discuss Danny's social media posts as almost all of them are related to his dolls. His dolls have backstories or meanings to their names, and while some might choose to forgo these in favour of their own, there are others who might feel uncomfortable purchasing said dolls due to their backstories/whatever is posted on their product page, and it is rather difficult to discuss the dolls themselves without bringing in what Danny has written wrt the dolls. As long as no personal attacks are made on Danny or anyone else, I don't really see a problem discussing his social media posts or product descriptions, especially if they are related to his products.

On 5/21/2020 at 4:54 PM, IgelFullmetal said:

I've done this kind of thing before in other fan spaces I've been a part of. I think the inability to address legitimate concerns from hurt people within will kill a community faster than trolls from the outside.

To reiterate what i said before.

19 hours ago, baldylox said:

But that doesn't mean that OUR members can't voice their concerns and issues with said company here.  This is an open forum and we appreciate hearing from both sides of issues.  We will NOT delete any posts voicing opinions and facts about problems they have had with the company and its owner. 

However... we will NOT allow ANY type of behavior like everyone here has seen on the SMD Lovers page in the past.  This is NOT the place for a witch hunt.  This is NOT the place to pick on people, degrade them or vilify them because they have had a legitimate problem with something they paid good money for.  I will not have any of that crap here.  If Averis or I see it start happening, the persons creating it WILL be dealt with accordingly.  This is not a threat nor is it some type of control mechanism.  I've worked hard to keep this forum going and also to make sure it's open and inviting to ALL vinyl doll owners.  I will NOT have it destroyed by a group of people hell bent on making everyone think and do what they do just to be in someone else's good graces.

I ask that everyone please keep things here as civil as possible, which we have so far and I thank you all for that! 

Just to clarify a few points in Billy's post.

We can still discuss our concerns with Danny's soapbox posts. Just continue like we have been, being very polite and civil about everything. If someone jumps in and starts harassing/bullying someone for voicing an valid opinion, report it and that person will be dealt with.

Just wanted to let everyone know that we're still the same place and it's safe to put your voice out here!!

I totally understand why it's probably frustrating to see your fans and customers disappointed.  I also understand the frustration of others not knowing what a request is.  

I almost get the impression Danny just needs a friend who isn't involved in SmD to vent to about his problems.  

What really gets me is this constant "how do I convince my customers to stop buying from me?" thing.  Why are you actively trying to stop business?  If you don't want to sell dolls, sell the company.  Is it some marketing experiment, to see if people will keep buying stuff because he says not to?  

36 minutes ago, Galvatim said:

What really gets me is this constant "how do I convince my customers to stop buying from me?" thing.  Why are you actively trying to stop business?  If you don't want to sell dolls, sell the company.  Is it some marketing experiment, to see if people will keep buying stuff because he says not to?  

I have a hunch it's because he'd rather lose out on potential customers than have any sort of dedicated customer service team, which is certainly an... interesting strategy.

Good to know we weren't banned. I'm still new to this hobby and was legitimately worried my reputation would be damaged.  

3 hours ago, Galvatim said:

What really gets me is this constant "how do I convince my customers to stop buying from me?" thing.  Why are you actively trying to stop business?  If you don't want to sell dolls, sell the company.  Is it some marketing experiment, to see if people will keep buying stuff because he says not to?  

 

I'm honestly wondering why he puts so much effort into it. I truly do. It must be exhausting. He is always saying that you shouldn't give a sheep about haters and to not waste your energy on dealing with negativity. So why do this? People are always gonna find something to complain about. Why not focus your time and energy on all the GOOD things that Smart Doll has to offer? 

I also can't help but wonder if this tactic isn't scaring away potential new customers. I've known Smart Doll since 2014 so I know what I'm getting when I buy from them. But if I were a new customer and I'd see the CEO of said company constantly joke about "don't buy our crappy products", it'd give me the impression that this company has little faith in its own products. 

I think he's just a hugely insecure egotist. The worst thing in his world would be to be seen as trying hard and still failing. So if anyone even hints at being unhappy with something he's done, he has to launch into a year-long performance of not caring about it anyway. And if he has total contempt for his customers, their opinion of him won't matter. It's a bit sad, to my mind.

Maybe hiring a PR/assistant to deal with weird customers can take the stress off him. I'm sure CEOs don't personally check all the emails and comments or else one would go insane! Even celebrities and other high profile people know not to read that.

15 hours ago, Nyx Whitestar said:

So dissapointed. Your speech only sounds like some hardcore fans went to cry at your shoulder. As you said, everything was fine, we were discussing politely, and now we can't discuss the social problems with Danny's speeches and his false inclusivity, etc.? Why? Because a hardcore fan can't handle it? That was exaclty the problem with the FB group, the will to silence those who were pointing problems. It not ended well.

 

That is NOT what happened.  Please read the post below this to see what I am talking about.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, kranberrijam said:

On 5/22/2020 at 3:30 PM, baldylox said:

But that doesn't mean that OUR members can't voice their concerns and issues with said company here.  This is an open forum and we appreciate hearing from both sides of issues.  We will NOT delete any posts voicing opinions and facts about problems they have had with the company and its owner. 

However... we will NOT allow ANY type of behavior like everyone here has seen on the SMD Lovers page in the past.  This is NOT the place for a witch hunt.  This is NOT the place to pick on people, degrade them or vilify them because they have had a legitimate problem with something they paid good money for.  I will not have any of that crap here.  If Averis or I see it start happening, the persons creating it WILL be dealt with accordingly.  This is not a threat nor is it some type of control mechanism.  I've worked hard to keep this forum going and also to make sure it's open and inviting to ALL vinyl doll owners.  I will NOT have it destroyed by a group of people hell bent on making everyone think and do what they do just to be in someone else's good graces.

I ask that everyone please keep things here as civil as possible, which we have so far and I thank you all for that! 

 

 

Just to clarify a few points in Billy's post.

We can still discuss our concerns with Danny's soapbox posts. Just continue like we have been, being very polite and civil about everything. If someone jumps in and starts harassing/bullying someone for voicing an valid opinion, report it and that person will be dealt with.

Just wanted to let everyone know that we're still the same place and it's safe to put your voice out here!!

Exactly as Kranberri said.  I guess I wasn't as eloquent with my typing as I thought I was.   She is correct and I am in agreement 100% to what she said.  

 

 

Billy

12 hours ago, bbotss said:

I think that as long as everyone remains civil in their discourse, it should be ok to discuss Danny's social media posts as almost all of them are related to his dolls. His dolls have backstories or meanings to their names, and while some might choose to forgo these in favour of their own, there are others who might feel uncomfortable purchasing said dolls due to their backstories/whatever is posted on their product page, and it is rather difficult to discuss the dolls themselves without bringing in what Danny has written wrt the dolls. As long as no personal attacks are made on Danny or anyone else, I don't really see a problem discussing his social media posts or product descriptions, especially if they are related to his products.

Yes, you are correct.  

 

 

Billy

Thanks for the additional clarification, @baldylox. I think a lot of us read the second post and interpreted it the same way Nyx did (I certainly did). No, shade to your writing intended, sometimes tone can be interpreted very differently per individual. Although to make sure, did we cross some lines or did you mean to prevent us from crossing the lines? 

4 hours ago, SakuraRose said:

Thanks for the additional clarification, @baldylox. I think a lot of us read the second post and interpreted it the same way Nyx did (I certainly did). No, shade to your writing intended, sometimes tone can be interpreted very differently per individual. Although to make sure, did we cross some lines or did you mean to prevent us from crossing the lines? 

No problem.  Prevention is the key.   

 

 

Billy 

I was not talking about the first message but about the second one (I was specifically referring to "social justice issues", you can tell because I wrote "we can't discuss the social problems with Danny's speeches?") I think it was pretty obvious in my answer and people understood it very well, my message and yours, it's not about tone or anything. So I will quote you to make it more obvious what I was referring to: 

On 5/23/2020 at 12:02 PM, baldylox said:

But what we don't want or need is people to be using this as a platform to attack the company/Danny or to complain about "Danny wrote *x* on his Instagram or in a product description that offends me."   We're here to discuss issues with products and how he handles things.  We're not here to be a place for things like that.  This is one of the rare spots that people can escape the deluge of politics and social justice issues and I don't think we need or want that here.  I sure don't want it here.

Some may disagree with me but in order to keep things from going south like on Facebook, I'm asking everyone to please leave all that stuff for other places.  I'm not trying to silence anyone or downplay what Danny says in his rants.  I just want this place to remain fair and a safe spot for us all.

About the first message: I found it weird, but I had nothing to complain. Weird because everything was going very well for 17 pages, so what was the need to warning us about being polite, which we were for all those pages, with different people (Smd fans or not) expressing different opinions - and now people wonder if they have crossed lines or not. Nothing to complain because it's a normal thing to do to not let people bullying each other, it is the basic role of the moderators (and when you are a decent human being I guess).

And thoughts about referring to Danny about diversity in the doll hobby when he is constantly referring to "others brands" in a passive-aggressive way... lol? Danny is precisely the one who had blowned up the community between "the others and us, the non-elitists" and that's a part of why this topic exists. Anyway the message is true, we all love many different brands of dolls and the situation is just sad.

So, now you say it is ok to discuss problematics messages from Danny, I'm glad we still can express our concerns, so it's ok for me. (I still wonder what was that all about :D)

bbotss said:

I think that as long as everyone remains civil in their discourse, it should be ok to discuss Danny's social media posts as almost all of them are related to his dolls. His dolls have backstories or meanings to their names, and while some might choose to forgo these in favour of their own, there are others who might feel uncomfortable purchasing said dolls due to their backstories/whatever is posted on their product page, and it is rather difficult to discuss the dolls themselves without bringing in what Danny has written wrt the dolls. As long as no personal attacks are made on Danny or anyone else, I don't really see a problem discussing his social media posts or product descriptions, especially if they are related to his products.

 

baldylox said:
Yes, you are correct.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Nyx Whitestar
Fixing spelling and repetitions

Sorry @Nyx Whitestar, I didn't mean to insinuate that your comment was about the first post as it certainly was about the following post.

I have to be honest, the two of the posts contradict each other, but the first post seems to be the one that is more...true (?) , according to the following clarification. About social justice and politics though, in my eyes all personal problems are political as well, because everything has a societal context. It's a perspective I've adopted as it's necessary in my major (social work) to assess client problems critically. Even...freaking fruit to me can be political lol (not exaggerating). I know that for other people, they certainly would not view the world the same way I do, and that's perfectly fine because most people do not need to. I was trying to figure out how exactly do other people define social issues and politics. With Danny and his products, it's hard to know (for everyone else as well)...When is it considered to be just a product description or a political post? I honestly don't know when it comes him. Sorry, I'm just trying to provide context for what I said. 

If no lines were crossed in this thread, I would assume that means as long as we stick with our constructive criticism and our respectful behaviour, I would hazard a guess that we're good (?). 

 

@SakuraRose Sorry I have not been clear, I was not responding to you, your message was perfectlty fine 🙇‍♀️ I was responding to baldylox and kranberrijam.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Nyx Whitestar

13 minutes ago, Nyx Whitestar said:

@SakuraRose Sorry I have not been clear, I was not responding to you, your message was perfectlty fine 🙇‍♀️ I was responding to baldylox and kranberrijam.

Ohh...oopsie. 😅  Either way, what you pointed out in the phrasing was very important, otherwise we'd truly turn into a community like the SmD Lovers group. At the same time, I do have faith that the mods will come to a conclusion that we'll be okay with in the end, like they've done consistently in the past.

Spoiler

Otherwise, it'd be a real bummer and I'd have to take my leave quietly.

 

9 hours ago, SakuraRose said:

If no lines were crossed in this thread, I would assume that means as long as we stick with our constructive criticism and our respectful behaviour, I would hazard a guess that we're good (?). 

 

^THIS.

Basically this forum doesn't want to turn into what happened in the FB group, where people were getting attacked for voicing opinions. I believe the original post was trying to state that. This entire thread so far is a great example of people stating their opinions and everyone discussing things without insulting each other.

Wow okay as one of the people in the first wave a while ago to get banned and blocked by Danny on instagram and facebook, the first thing I yelled when I caught up on everyone's comments and everything that has gone on was "VINDICAAATTIOOOOONNNNNNN!!!!!!" 

That being said I do adore my Moonlight.

I just... ugh. I can't.

On 5/23/2020 at 9:45 PM, Eiko82 said:

 

I also can't help but wonder if this tactic isn't scaring away potential new customers. I've known Smart Doll since 2014 so I know what I'm getting when I buy from them. But if I were a new customer and I'd see the CEO of said company constantly joke about "don't buy our crappy products", it'd give me the impression that this company has little faith in its own products. 

I am new here, so apologies for diving right in. ^^; I wanted to get some perspective from smart doll owners, but the facebook group closed down as I applied to join. And this post is kinda my situation as someone who just discovered smart dolls a few months ago. 

I have super fallen in love with Justice. Like, I don't know why, sometimes I see a doll and it just clicks. I am wary though, because I don't want to spend basically £500 (after customs and fees) on a doll that won't last, no matter how careful I am; or a doll that arrives broken and I will be too afraid to complain about. Because there's so much negativity around them, I kinda want to know, is it worth it? I don't have much money, so it's a big purchase. But I do love how she looks. 

Also I don't want people to hate on my doll because of whatever Danny Choo has said. -_-; Please help this newbie decide! Apologies if I'm in the wrong place. 

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend it now that Danny is really at a high considering criticism, I'd watch to see whether he snaps or whether he actually tries to better himself. I wouldn't be comfortable asking for customer support at the moment. As far as people who don't like danny choo go though, I can guarantee you that most people's problem ends with him and his enablers. So if you buy a smartdoll and you're happy with it, if people give you shit over that it's honestly just childish. I still love seeing happy owners with pretty dolls, and I'm pretty sure most people think the same

At least at the moment it would be a month or so before I could afford the doll - if I'm super careful and don't buy any books or games. XD Maybe Danny will calm down by then... Hopefully... I mean I'm using an anonymised name just in case! Eep! 

(Praying to the doll gods that I can get a Justice doll and everything will be okay) 

@Katsudon Not sure if you have seen this, but a customer who placed an order recently was treated really badly by Danny. Basically he wasn't sure if his order got through but imo Danny was really nasty to him.

If you get your Justice, just remember that most in this hobby are in it for the love of dolls. Don't let the actions or words of Danny affect your enjoyment of her. As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, Danny is just the face of the brand, and there are many working behind the scenes to create the beautiful dolls we see. If anything, Danny is the one who has been promoting the "us vs them" mentality, and only his most zealous supporters are like him. All the best with your purchase and I hope you love her when she gets to you! ^-^