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The Facebook debacle & other issues

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Monty
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Yumeiro said:

Guess that explains things...
Yet, I find it hard to believe. (but why bother lying about it)

How is it with Volks and Azone, and so on - anyone know how they are in regards to kids? Is there a lot of children owning those dolls/are they often marketed towards children?

Volks and Azone specify that their products are for ages 15+. I’ve noticed the same for other hobby companies too, I think it’s a standard thing in Japan to differentiate them from kids toys. I don’t think Volks actually enforce it in any way, other than the fact that when they did that promotion thing last year for a non-owner to win a free standard SD, they had to be at least 15.

While I do think it’s good and important for kids to have access to diversity in dolls (I mean, just look at how happy that girl in the link is to have a doll that looks like her), I have...mixed feelings about actually marketing them to children given how expensive they are. It does make me a bit uncomfortable (particularly with the encouraging of impulse buying), but I think it could also be part of the reason he retired a lot of those XXXXXL busts, reigned in the dirty jokes etc.

I’m curious where that data comes from, though...? Do the parents specify when they order? And do some of the ‘rules’ apply to them, I wonder? I can’t help thinking what the ratio of parents:others is for order cancellations. 

Edited by Monty
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HazelMaze

With the way Danny has curated what I can only consider the most /specific/ of collector fan bases- I personally do not understand the child marketing angle. There isn't anything about the ordering process,the company social media presence or site design that screams "Child/Parent friendly". I had first imagined Cortex was going to sort of fix that angle- a diverse doll that would 100% be more kid friendly and cost effective.Unfortunately, I think price tag killed Cortex.

I just see kids slapped onto the site banners and it makes me feel sort of odd- with his social media roster  on his product pages/look how many adults are on there/. Now look at /how young the kids on the website are/. The kid owners feel forced to center stage and it doesn't sit right with me.( Though I don't necessarily think too many parents want their kids face posted via instagram to then be put on site roster)

I'm not saying your website design has to pander or be filled with bright colors to be kid friendly/parent friendly. But the sheer number of rants and disclaimers, and hidden products....it's eye watering. And as a tech-savy person even I have a hard time finding what I want on it sometimes. It can be like deciphering code.

 

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finnleo

I thought for a minute you were joking about the banners, had to check it was august 2nd, and not april first, and decided to take a peek ... yup ... photos of kids with their dolls, right above a selection of doll underagarments.

the cynic in me thinks its a brilliant marketing strategy. since it brings a certain level of immunity against critique... or that the people throwing said critique will probably get chewed for being anti kids.

But despite my disposition on the brand, this gives me the heebie jeebies a bit.

 

 

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BeyondTime
4 hours ago, Yumeiro said:

How is it with Volks and Azone, and so on - anyone know how they are in regards to kids? Is there a lot of children owning those dolls/are they often marketed towards children?

I don't recall seeing anyone under the age of 20 at the LA Dolpa.

 

4 hours ago, Yumeiro said:

Guess that explains things...

The rabibity of part of the fanbase comes to mind here.

It might also indicate that SmD has lost much of it's adult fanbase, and kids are likely to be first time / one time buyers given the high cost.

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The difference between Dollfie Dreams and Heroin? Heroin is illegal, Dollfie Dreams probably should be.

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Mame
30 minutes ago, BeyondTime said:

I don't recall seeing anyone under the age of 20 at the LA Dolpa.

Guess you didn't see me then haha. 

 There are to many things to assume about what he means by "kids". 17 and below? 12 and below? Some of the kids on the website look pretty young... One thing that comes to mind are American Girl dolls, while not the same concept, they are higher end vinyl-ish dolls. They're still marketed towards kids but like in the 8-12 year old range (or older of course!) . Im not sure what age range Danny is going for, then it should be in about the same age range as the Ags. He could at least  put a specified age range : / .(?)

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BeyondTime
52 minutes ago, Mame said:

Guess you didn't see me then haha. 

No, I must not have. I definitely saw people in their early 20s, but no recollection of anyone younger.

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The difference between Dollfie Dreams and Heroin? Heroin is illegal, Dollfie Dreams probably should be.

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Mame
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, BeyondTime said:

No, I must not have. I definitely saw people in their early 20s, but no recollection of anyone younger.

I was just joking^^ ( Although I definitely was there). But yeah, although I'm in my late teens I hardly saw anyone my age or younger. Which is kind of intresting seeing how Danny wants to market SmD to children?@onion35@

Edited by Mame

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bbotss

80%? Statistics or I'll just take it with a pinch of salt. (Remember, this is the guy who lied in order to obtain order numbers so that he could cancel orders and ban people. Also, Vooooolks translation.)

Personally, I feel that it's just another marketing ploy to appear "different" or "more inclusive", compared to Vooooooolks and other BJD companies.

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Katsudon
1 hour ago, Mame said:

 Im not sure what age range Danny is going for, then it should be in about the same age range as the Ags. He could at least  put a specified age range : / .(?)

I think I read somewhere that Danny recommends dolls for ages 6+.

I dunno if there's any safety certification that needs to be passed for such a young age. I know there is over here... no idea what the law in Japan is o_o;

My toddler is super enamoured by my Smart Doll XD but she's not allowed to touch it. I don't think I would trust one to a child under 10 (even a super careful ocd kid like I was.) and by that age, might as well go for a cheap bjd. Could only really justify a Smart Doll for my kid if she was already very into dolls, and I'd want to test that with cheaper dolls first.

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Jezrah
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Mame said:

One thing that comes to mind are American Girl dolls, while not the same concept, they are higher end vinyl-ish dolls. They're still marketed towards kids but like in the 8-12 year old range (or older of course!) . Im not sure what age range Danny is going for, then it should be in about the same age range as the Ags. He could at least  put a specified age range : / .(?)

I soooo wanted an AG doll when I was in 2nd or 3rd grade, but my parents (read, my stingy dad) said they cost too much for a doll, and I wasn't allowed to have one. I think at the time, in the 90's they went for about $125, and came with their full character outfit and I think the first book in their series? I knew two girls my age that had them, but were more upper middle class. One of the girls had two lawyers for parents, and was considered rich compared to the rest of us. My family was middle class, and we could have afforded it really, but like I said my dad was stingy and we were only allowed to spend money on the things he said we could. An AG doll would have been more than half of my Christmas budget, and my dad didn't think I would be satisfied getting the one thing I wanted rather than a pile of things I didn't ask for. 🙄 (My parents have been divorced for years, my mom is remarried, and I no longer speak to my dad, if you want tips on how not to be a good father.) Anyways, there's obviously inflation involved, but the cost of a Smart Doll is definitely way higher than an AG. Are these people that are buying Smart Dolls for their kids just rich and don't care how much they throw at a product, or has there been a change in what is considered to be normal spending for a kid or something? Because if you're just looking for diversity in dolls, you can still but an AG that looks like you, and the price is not as high as a Smart Doll, nor are they as breakable. I would still like to have a kid at some point if I'm able, and while I would love sharing my doll hobby with my child, I probably wouldn't buy them their own DD style doll until they were older and had proven that they could be responsible with it. I wouldn't even get an AG until a certain age/maturity level, because they can still be damaged, too. 

TLDR; what is with these parents' spending?! I consider the cost to be too high for a younger child, and although they are dolls, I don't consider them to be toys that should be played with in the manner of a young child. 

I dunno, maybe this is just jealousy talking, because I wasn't given the chance to own expensive things as a child. But I really wouldn't know unless I was the parent of a mature 8-10 year old already.

Edited by Jezrah
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32717445532_3aa446bd94_m.jpg

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HazelMaze
3 hours ago, finnleo said:

I thought for a minute you were joking about the banners, had to check it was august 2nd, and not april first, and decided to take a peek ... yup ... photos of kids with their dolls, right above a selection of doll underagarments.

the cynic in me thinks its a brilliant marketing strategy. since it brings a certain level of immunity against critique... or that the people throwing said critique will probably get chewed for being anti kids.

But despite my disposition on the brand, this gives me the heebie jeebies a bit.

That's the uncomfortable part, there is nothing about his other marketing that compliments the kid angle. Think of a line like AG or "Our Generation", or other doll brands. What clothes are they given? It's pretty clear the demographic by fashion choice and toy design alone. The clothes modest, the dolls larger/thicker and easier to handle, the topics they choose to theme around very middle of the road and "friendly". I'd say probably working that 8 - 10 year old angle.

Then there is the way Smart Doll markets and the clothes pitched. Sexy lingerie, push-up busts,tube tops.Take a look at those Yukata photos, lovely outfit, but definitely provocative in nature.

A direct website quote -from just this minute- on the "Front Zip Sports Bra Grey". A set that could be argued is pretty normal/ tame and not expressly advertised as proactive. It's "Work out gear".

"As you can see from the photos you cant completely undo the zip at the front - it's only designed to cause moderate nosebleeds."

The way he markets is for older audiences. At the very least, "fashionable" 14+, but he claims he has 80% kids.From my understanding that would be the age of the kids on the website. Those kiddos don't look 13/14 to me. That is what makes it...uncomfortable. It doesn't make sense to me!

I hope it's not to land people in "anti-kid" jail. I am of the belief if a child can take care of expensive things if they are mature/responsible enough. But that is a personal choice between parent/child.

I'd like to see how he got his percentages or what brought him to the conclusion of "for kids". I don't think these younger audiences exactly have credit cards!

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Yumeiro

I think it's fine for kids to own a Smartdoll, DD, or what have you, in itself... But....

6 hours ago, Monty said:

I have...mixed feelings about actually marketing them to children given how expensive they are. It does make me a bit uncomfortable (particularly with the encouraging of impulse buying)

This.

I think he sent out some cortex dolls to kids to "play test". I'd imagine those kids showing them off to friends, and then said friends pressuring their parents to get them their own doll, and so on. And said dolls are going to need clothes and wigs, that cost more than regular clothes (probably). It feels unfair to those parents, and kids too.
Product aside (and the issue with breaking it and getting replacement parts), the price is not generally kid-friendly.

4 hours ago, HazelMaze said:

on his product pages/look how many adults are on there/. Now look at /how young the kids on the website are/. The kid owners feel forced to center stage and it doesn't sit right with me.( Though I don't necessarily think too many parents want their kids face posted via instagram to then be put on site roster)

Not to mention kids and adults "play" with their dolls differently. I think kids are more prone to play with their dolls than taking photos, for example. So their presence might not be the same as "adults" (and as mentioned, the whole issue with plastering kids on the internet). So yeah... it feels more forced than general inclusion.

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Katsudon

This is maybe gonna be a controversial take... so skip if you don't like that XD

I mentioned elsewhere that I really like the representation in Smart Dolls, and think it's cool, but have some complicated feelings about it. This is mostly 'cos of my kid.

My kid has a birth mark on her face that appeared a little while after she was born. I think if she was ever to get a Smart Doll, I'd want her to be old enough to decide whether she wanted one with that representation or not, instead of having it thrust upon her just because. o_o Though the chances of anyone but me buying her one are so slim. It's still something I think about. She needs to have the maturity to decide, to know her feelings about it. (I dunno if this makes sense to anyone else).

Either way, right now she's busy stealing my amiibos XD so she's got plenty to do lol

Again, I really do think the inclusiveness of Smart Doll is cool, and a definite plus. 😄 I'm glad it's part of the brand.

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BeyondTime
1 hour ago, HazelMaze said:

The clothes modest, the dolls larger/thicker and easier to handle, the topics they choose to theme around very middle of the road and "friendly". I'd say probably working that 8 - 10 year old angle.

That's one area where SmD really contrasts with Volks; little in the way of provocative clothing gets released by Volks. There are a few items like underwear, bikini swimsuits, the occasional limited doll outfit, and baby-dolls, but that's about it. I honestly think the baby-dolls themselves are really intended as a way of achieving a greater degree of decorum while displaying the doll in that expensive underwear.


The difference between Dollfie Dreams and Heroin? Heroin is illegal, Dollfie Dreams probably should be.

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finnleo
18 minutes ago, BeyondTime said:

little in the way of provocative clothing gets released by Volks.

Well, it wasnt always like this, and Volks'es movement to its current stance has been a long and subtle change... back in the days of the DD1's the outfits specifically for dollfie dreams could almost be called fetish-wear. The Icon series with its clothing is a bit of a throw back to the wilder days, but still pretty subtle with its white tones, and overall coverage.

But that shows certain dedication to their brand, and the willingness to evolve it through time, without making too many crashes along the way. But still in a manner they still admit to releasing some of those items and the people they partnered with for them, though some stuff, like the smaller scale Lost angels story series of items seem lost in time.

What im seeing here isakin to a ball bearing in a pinball machine.

 

 

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Yumeiro
58 minutes ago, finnleo said:

 back in the days of the DD1's the outfits specifically for dollfie dreams could almost be called fetish-wear.

Wasn't most DDs from eroge/hentai series at the beginning? And was marketed towards "the male side".

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BeyondTime
1 hour ago, Yumeiro said:

Wasn't most DDs from eroge/hentai series at the beginning?

Yeah, I forgot all about Escalayer and Kanu's origins in adult themed content.

 

2 hours ago, finnleo said:

back in the days of the DD1's the outfits specifically for dollfie dreams could almost be called fetish-wear.

Well before my time in the hobby, but I don't recall seeing anything that I would call fetish wear in the BotB selection listings. I did see some stuff that seemed based on some of the more unusual Paris runway fare.

My observation about Volks clothing is that it tends towards the traditional and conservative, but I've only paid attention since 2013.


The difference between Dollfie Dreams and Heroin? Heroin is illegal, Dollfie Dreams probably should be.

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finnleo
Posted (edited)
On 8/3/2020 at 12:53 AM, Yumeiro said:

Wasn't most DDs from eroge/hentai series at the beginning? And was marketed towards "the male side".

The first collaboration item was actually Neon genesis evangelion, so that should have originally set a anime collectibe status. But then they made the streak of DaCapo dolls, I believe fully under the circus licence.

they usual approach was to use the Pure-release companies for the licences, so in theory they werent dealing with a R-18 release item. Although now in an effort to avoid having crow for breakfast, I did some fact checking, and currently volks actually lists some of the naughty companies as collab partners, also in items I believe I originally saw the pure company listed during release.

Was the brand directly aimed at a full male audience? Maybe, Maybe not. the issue beeing the collaboration items mostly being linked to male end users.

I'd say the biggest tilt came in 2007 when they did the Haruhi collaboration. after that the whole tenshi no koromo line of clothing sort of eased out.

 

On 8/3/2020 at 1:58 AM, BeyondTime said:

Well before my time in the hobby, but I don't recall seeing anything that I would call fetish wear in the BotB selection listings. I did see some stuff that seemed based on some of the more unusual Paris runway fare.

Well.. The thing is what is considered fetish today as things are getting progressively wilder by the day, so now a days it could be considered only just goth-punk with a touch of PVC.

But remember this was the period only a few years after Ally McBeal. and Robert Downey Jr. was doing prison time.

Exhibit A:

Original Mirais outfit (Which I once defended on this forum as just being cheeky while the opposition ruled Fetchi), Candys being a miniskirt version, the kicker being the back of the skirt which is laced up to the waist for that cheeky peek-aboo action:

9729231213_4c159405b3_c.jpg

kira001

B: Blue label China dress circa 2004:

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kira012

C : The Lost angels story design languange. (The shino outfit is especially amusing with a imitation C-string):

16889864121_bb590183d0_c.jpg

maya003

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shino054

And my favorute, D :  Blue label underwear circa 2004 (which was also featured on the Volks USA site before their revamp):

24989015774_e66b0e19e5_c.jpg

michi035

(and yes, the pants are covering only a rather narrow strip)

 

EDIT, Exhibit E:

Was digging into boxes, and forgot I had this old Minimaid outfit from the strung days, based on the sticker on the bag it was in:

14641458802_89b3857e27_c.jpg

feena030

Same silver thread used as the "lingerie" above, putting it also in the same period as it.

And for the items I dont personally have, the blue label underwear you can occasionally find on mandarake are quite .. slim compared to modern standards. So there has been quite a change on this side of the fence.

 

Edited by finnleo
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BeyondTime
8 minutes ago, finnleo said:

goth-punk with a touch of PVC.

Yeah, some of those are good bit more wild than the stuff I am used to seeing from Volks. This wasn't what came to mind when you said Goth Punk though. XD

One thing I will say is that Culture Japan seems to be toning some of their more risque stuff down, perhaps because of the mainstream licenses associated with their brand now, and perhaps because their niche would seem to be shifting towards a younger audience. It's possible that the rest of that stuff will be discontinued over time.


The difference between Dollfie Dreams and Heroin? Heroin is illegal, Dollfie Dreams probably should be.

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finnleo

Well, I probably did over reach with the punk bit, But Marya is still pretty gothic in my opinion. But you probably get the idea that volks'es DD in-house characters and some optional apparel were a lot more moody looking in ye olden days.

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BeyondTime
4 hours ago, finnleo said:

Well, I probably did over reach with the punk bit,

They have some older outfits that I definitely would call punk in their styling. Stuff I want for my Belldandy when she is dressing up as Demon-Bell.


The difference between Dollfie Dreams and Heroin? Heroin is illegal, Dollfie Dreams probably should be.

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sweets
On 8/2/2020 at 4:06 AM, Yumeiro said:

Guess that explains things...
Yet, I find it hard to believe. (but why bother lying about it)

How is it with Volks and Azone, and so on - anyone know how they are in regards to kids? Is there a lot of children owning those dolls/are they often marketed towards children?

woah I never saw this. I really hope that isn't true because his marketing is nowhere near kid-friendly. 

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AnjoRaivando
9 hours ago, sweets said:

woah I never saw this. I really hope that isn't true because his marketing is nowhere near kid-friendly. 

Yeah, I find that incredibly strange, all things considered. Not only is it pretty odd to try and gear your $500+ product to children (even as a luxury toy, there are so many playline toys I would absolutely give priority to for a child), seeing the way his "marketing" goes, I sure wouldn't be like, entirely comfortable with it if I had a kid who was into SMD. 

I know he's allergic to the point of bald rage to having a marketing team, but even criticisms aside, having proper marketing would be like...CRITICAL to making SmD a Kid's Product, and that's without even taking into account his tendency to terrorize his customers.

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Katsudon

Yeah, sure it'll be excellent PR when a kid breaks a Smart Doll and gets bullied online for wanting it fixed... 😕

(but then I baulked when my uncle bought one of those robot t-rexes all those years ago for my much younger cousins, because those things were so expensive. So... yeah. Can't understand buying a Smart Doll for a kid. Late teens, maybe.)

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