Imomodoll 1/4 Vinyl Dolls??

Thanks @0bsequi0us for sharing! 
I am still waiting on mine, but it's good to know we can mod these a little too. She looks really cute though! 

My tan 1/6 is at long last on her way to me. Excited!!!!

 

I also got my 1/4 girlies, both Ruby and Mimi. I have mixed feelings. They’re very cute but the frame (especially Mimi’s) is a little frustrating to tangle with. Gonna try superglue enhancing the pegs, I think. 

Stumbled upon this tweet that raises concern about plagiarism. The Imomo frame has parts that are similar to Volks' MMDf3, and the hand parts are almost exactly the same as Dollbot's:

They're debating whether Imomo's cheap price is a result of them using other people's design.

Looking at the photos, the evidence seems quite damning. I mean, the frame has some differences in the shapes of the parts, although the round elbow joint part is pretty much the exact same, just slightly bigger. It looks like they tweaked some of the other shapes to get away with it not being an exact copy. While one could argue that there's only so many ways to make hands for dolls, the similarity with Dollbot's hand parts is a bit too close to comfort, and combined with the similarities to MDDf3 frame, does not make Imomo look good.

I'm rather disappointed to discover this, as I had been interested in Imomo (especially since they offer a darker tan skin tone). 😐 I don't think that I can support them in good conscience after seeing these photos.

3 minutes ago, mizya said:

the hand parts are almost exactly the same as Dollbot's

So interesting that this came up now because my Imomo arrived on Friday and I was literally looking at her hands then and had Dollbot's website open and was thinking the same thing! Silly me just thought it was a common hand gesture in the doll hobby but seeing the photo of them side by side is very convincing. 

I have been noticing lately that I've been confusing the Dollbot bodies for the Imomo one in pictures, and this is probably why. TBH I'm not the most familiar with Dollbot so I also just wrote it off as a similar hand pose.

It's disappointing, but I have to say in hindsight I'm unfortunately not super surprised. I've gotten the impression that these were pretty rushed and unfinished, so it would make sense if they cut corners by basically copying engineering. And especially since they started out with resin dolls that were meant to be an alternative to Kumako... they have mimicry sort of baked into their history. It has never been quite this blatant, though.

Someone cross posted this on weibo as well and the discussion happening there is interesting. 

Link: https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4893679837775559

The general consensus seems to be that the evidence regarding the hand isn't strong enough of an argument as the pose/shape of it is quite generic and can still be a case of coincidence. Regarding the shells as a whole, there were comments saying that they find the body sculpt of mimi and dollbot to be too distinct from each other (even if in the same style/proportions) to judge for sure. 

*the sculpt of the imomodoll bodies seem to be based on the ones of their own resin line; the noxious dolls. 

A comment stated that only the frame of the arms were taken for comparison and not the full body so they're skeptical if the frame is indeed plagiarised as alleged. And another comment argued that Volks is the pioneer and that based on the claims all doll companies should be sued. 

The one I find most interesting is one asking if the frames of all MJDs (aka mechanical jointed dolls) derive the same engineering.

Mainly because while owners already familiar with Japanese MJDs (DDs, Obitsu, Azone etc.) can more or less tell the difference, the Chinese MJD market is still fairly new with Tinyfox taking the lead at the moment yet at the same time, China also has a rather developed non-playline doll industry and community, and by extension a booming domestic market (which means it's more than likely that there are quite a number of owners who don't own or are unfamiliar with dolls outside of their domestic market). Not to mention imomodoll's customer base consisting mainly of resin owners due to their flagship products being resin. 

All that in consideration, it opens up the question of how MJDs from chinese companies have their frames conceived/designed and how familiar people are with the way frames look/function in a way that's supposed to be distinct and not an overlap due to serving fundamental functions. 

Someone in the QRT of OP's tweet also added that while they have their suspicions, the frame parts of the body and leg parts seem to differ from both volks and dollbot. 

They also mentioned that there was a legal dispute between Obitsu and Volks too where it was hard for users to discern for sure. I looked around and there was indeed a court dispute between Obitsu (the defendant) and Volks (the plaintiff) concerning the frame and its modifications. 

Link here: https://www.ip.courts.go.jp/app/hanrei_jp/detail?id=3055 (hopefully this isnt off-topic.)

 

So we’ve been talking about this over on the vinyl discord and the main thing seems to be that; You can only reinvent the wheel so many ways.
 

in other words, there are only so many ways to make those joints to have the range of motion they’d want. Sure you can argue that they may have made similar pieces, but there are enough differences that if this were true then why not just rip the whole thing off? Why bother having differences at all?

 

additionally, there are not many vinyl sculptors out there, and given the ways TinyFox and Imomo’s sculptor seem to tag one another, I feel they likely share the same sculptor. I believe dollbot may also, though I have no proof on that fact

As for the hands, why then wouldn’t Smart Doll get in trouble with Volks? They have very similar sculpts!

 

and just think about resin for a moment, SO many body’s share the same concept of peanut joints and the like, so why aren’t we attacking the sculptures there?

 

Obviously the final answer is to wait to see if Imomo says something. If any of them say anything really. But our consensus for now was mostly that the differences are too different for it to be a rip off. 
 

our lovely resident @Oculae, created this image to show the differences:

Edited April 23, 2023 by Courtmom
Font issues

I didn't post about this issue to say "everyone boycott Imomo from now on", I only shared the tweet that I found to raise awareness, so that everyone can make the decision for themselves with the information that is available.

Whether other people will continue to buy from Imomo is up to them and I won't judge anyone, but for me personally the similarities are a dealbreaker and I was disappointed to discover this as I have been interested in their dolls. I would say this is similar to when an artist called "Pidgindoll" copied the elbow joints of Fairyland's Minifee dolls. Even though the rest of their doll was original, it was clear that the elbow joints were copied, so personally I chose to not support the artist (well, it helped that their dolls had a look that didn't appeal to me, I had also outgrown the FL aesthetic at that point).

I agree that there is a fine line between inspiration and plagiarism that can be hard to draw, especially nowadays when there are so many artists offering dolls, compared to the early 2000s (I got into resin dolls in 2005 and back then there was a much smaller selection of dolls to choose from). I believe the Volks vs Obitsu lawsuit was from a few years back when Obitsu was pretty much the only competitor for Volks (not even Smartdolls existed), so I understand Volks getting more aggressive about trying to protect their product from competition - although at the end of the day, Volks didn't really have a case (in my opinion) as Obitsu dolls are different enough from Volks' dolls (I say this as having owned both Volks and Obitsu bodies). But when it comes to these frame parts of the Imomo dolls, I think that Volks would be well in their rights to question whether this is merely inspiration or plagiarism.

But again, this is just my personal opinion, and others are free to agree or disagree with it.

Not sure how much relevance this will lend the topic, but copyright and plagiarism in Japan is also kind of a tricky subject due to a lack of fair use laws over there, so conversations surrounding plagiarism can swing between egregious ripoff and reasonable reference/inspiration under the same umbrella.

OP isn't presenting the evidence as conclusive but more personal concerns about the integrity behind the engineering and model of the imomodoll bodies as they're upset that imomodoll may be riding off what volks came up with after much experimentation. But like Courtmom brought up, you can only reinvent the wheel so many ways, and when it comes to engineering for joints there are nuances in construction to facilitate movement that can be missed at first glance while still having to follow some base rules. Which I believe is a vital context to evaluate as well in such cases. 

That is not to say that plagiarism allegations in this hobby are to be viewed lightly, but rather it's crucial to examine the claims carefully and its relevant contexts beyond what is presented at face value due to the multiple factors that go into doll construction. 

As for the individual sculptors, Tinyfox is a sister brand of Dollzone's so I believe its sculptors are affiliated with Dollzone as well, Imomodoll had its own dedicated sculptor and Dollbot is mostly an MDD modder in Japan who started off selling custom 3D printed shells on booth before starting dollbot (which is based on their custom shells) as their own brand. 

Here are their socials for reference:

Imomodoll sculptor:

https://m.weibo.cn/u/3163975114?jumpfrom=weibocom

 

Dollbot sculptor/designer:

https://twitter.com/ironedirno?t=unYjNLb2zYIlX9u_8vkzYA&s=09

6 minutes ago, mizya said:

I didn't post about this issue to say "everyone boycott Imomo from now on", I only shared the tweet that I found to raise awareness, so that everyone can make the decision for themselves with the information that is available.
 

I don't believe anyone here has mentioned anything about boycotting imomo or that your feelings on the subject were invalid. I am genuinely sorry if my replies came across as such to you. 🙁

My replies were meant to address the general topic coming from the angle of how the case is being viewed by other doll owners for discussion rather than a target on your decisions. 

I should clarify, I’m not trying to be all “roar angry roar argue” but more so to just present another mind set and some additional details. 
 

Overall, it’s partly a waiting game to see what Imomo, Volks and Dollbot say, because I feel it’s definitely all boiled down to them. But this is just for my choice in the matter!

I do think that Imomodoll coming from the resin community explains to some extent... In the resin community following the lead of other designers who make an effective engineering choice doesn't really seem frowned upon so long as an artist sculpts the pieces themselves and puts their own little spin on it. Which is exactly what Imomodoll has done here... this level of "inspiration" would be perfectly fine in the resin BJD world because the pieces (while functionally almost identical) are visually distinct and not interchangeable with the Volks parts.

I believe the Pidgin Doll situation was more because there was suspicion that the joints were directly recasted, or otherwise copied so exactly that they could have been recasted. There was no attempt to make the pieces visually distinct.

I do have mixed feelings about this whole situation... I like Imomo and I know they are competent sculptors and designers, but I do think they rushed into this whole vinyl thing and might be in over their heads. The hand thing especially is just kind of befuddling... like you can clearly design and sculpt your own hands (they have 3 pairs of option hands for that body that look nothing like Dollbot, not to mention all their resin hands), why even make one so similar to Dollbot? It seems like it would only be welcoming this kind of accusation... I have to assume it was either a really unfortunate coincidence or maybe a subconscious thing on the part of the sculptor.

I find this discussion to be extremely fascinating. I've followed it over on Discord as well, but - as everyone should - I've been thinking and reflecting about what this means to me personally.

First of all, here's the claims:

1. Imomodoll copied the Dollbot hand parts

2. Imomodoll copied the arm frame of the MDD f3

 

 

Right out of the gate, I would disagree with claim #1. The hands are undeniably very similar, but there are subtle differences that set them apart. In my opinion, those differences are enough to distinguish both hand parts as 'their own thing' rather than a blatant copy (as could have been achieved by 3D scanning, for example). 

9 hours ago, Veravey said:

Silly me just thought it was a common hand gesture in the doll hobby but seeing the photo of them side by side is very convincing. 

But.. isn't it a common hand gesture? If not in dolls, then in anime at least? (I added some examples in the second spoiler below - those were the first that came to mind, but I'm sure there's many more.) There's unfortunately just one picture, but FashionTail, a 3rd party hand part maker for M/DD on booth, sells similar hand parts.

Spoiler

Now, the FashionTail hands definitely look a bit more distinct from the Imomodoll and Dollbot versions, but I feel like the general idea is there. In the end, it's hands doing stuff hands do. If it was a 1:1 copy, I'd definitely have a different opinion, but as it is, for me, personally, I don't think it's an issue.

Just to make it clear: I'm not trying to convince anyone of my stance. In all honesty, I don't think there is a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to this. Like I said, everyone should go into themselves and make up their own minds. I'm just trying to offer my personal viewpoint.

 

 

Now, with claim #2 things are a bit more complicated.

Again, as others have pointed out, there are subtle differences, but I think it's undeniable that someone at the very least took a good look at the f3 frame for inspiration. You could argue it's the same with the hands, but again 'hands doing stuff hands do' - if the pose was some sort of complex gang sign I would be more skeptical, but as it is, the hand pose is basically just 'aesthetically reaching out for something', or at least that's what I always associated there..

Spoiler

So, if I don't think the hands are a problem, why do I think the frame is (more of one)?

Well, hands just kinda exist, while frames have to be invented.

Now, I'm not an engineer and I'm not sure whether the above mentioned 'You can only reinvent the wheel so many ways.' really applies here. At least, so far, all Vinyl doll companies had been able to come up with their own frames. Is it plausible that these companies have already discovered all the possible ways one could engineer a decent frame? I mean, maybe? But as far as I understand Imomo had been capable of engineering a distinct frame for the rest of the body - it's just the arms that are similar to MDD f3. 

That's why I think that someone most definitely took a look at the f3 and re-engineered/adjusted it.

The question is whether that's a problem.

56 minutes ago, 0bsequi0us said:

In the resin community following the lead of other designers who make an effective engineering choice doesn't really seem frowned upon so long as an artist sculpts the pieces themselves and puts their own little spin on it. Which is exactly what Imomodoll has done here... this level of "inspiration" would be perfectly fine in the resin BJD world because the pieces (while functionally almost identical) are visually distinct and not interchangeable with the Volks parts.

This sums up what I think pretty well.

The legality of the situation is not something I can comment on, but in general I can't help but think that if someone creates a technical design and someone else takes it, modifies it, improves on it.. it is generally a good thing.

I'm not asking for every company to go rush and copy f3, but there's 3rd party frame replacements that basically operate on the same premise. They take the original idea, tweak it, reinforce it and in the end you get a product that might fit your needs better.

Again, if it was a 1:1 copy, I would feel differently about the situation, but personally I don't see this as enough of a reason to drastically influence my purchasing decisions in the future, but of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

On 3/17/2023 at 1:50 PM, 0bsequi0us said:

@usagisea Courtmom is right, I do believe that's just the extra bust options. 😅 But I did buy my Miko from this Chinese dealer listing and they delivered just fine, so they might be an option. Looks like they even have some Miko bodies in stock with the larger bust?

I apologize for the late reply, i didn’t see this and i actually managed to find the same shop lol! but thank you so much, I really appreciate it!

On 2/5/2023 at 4:45 AM, chantelle said:

I finally caved and ended getting myself a tan Miko on the mimi body 😭

This was mainly because I saw a picture of a tan imomodoll on Twitter and I thought it was so cute. It was probably a resin and it a different sculpt but it was really lovely

Hopefully I can pass her as a 1/3 child/early teenager so shes not out of scale with my other girls

Do you mind if i asked where you ordered her!! 

I really want a tanned Miko but I can't seem to figure out where to get it and it seems like the only taobao listing i've seen so far doesn't have many options

 

I'd also love if anyone could drop the official taobao link! 

Thank you! 

On 4/23/2023 at 2:48 PM, RetroKanojo said:

I find this discussion to be extremely fascinating. I've followed it over on Discord as well, but - as everyone should - I've been thinking and reflecting about what this means to me personally.

First of all, here's the claims:

1. Imomodoll copied the Dollbot hand parts

2. Imomodoll copied the arm frame of the MDD f3

 

 

Right out of the gate, I would disagree with claim #1. The hands are undeniably very similar, but there are subtle differences that set them apart. In my opinion, those differences are enough to distinguish both hand parts as 'their own thing' rather than a blatant copy (as could have been achieved by 3D scanning, for example). 

But.. isn't it a common hand gesture? If not in dolls, then in anime at least? (I added some examples in the second spoiler below - those were the first that came to mind, but I'm sure there's many more.) There's unfortunately just one picture, but FashionTail, a 3rd party hand part maker for M/DD on booth, sells similar hand parts.

  Hide contents

Now, the FashionTail hands definitely look a bit more distinct from the Imomodoll and Dollbot versions, but I feel like the general idea is there. In the end, it's hands doing stuff hands do. If it was a 1:1 copy, I'd definitely have a different opinion, but as it is, for me, personally, I don't think it's an issue.

Just to make it clear: I'm not trying to convince anyone of my stance. In all honesty, I don't think there is a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to this. Like I said, everyone should go into themselves and make up their own minds. I'm just trying to offer my personal viewpoint.

 

 

Now, with claim #2 things are a bit more complicated.

Again, as others have pointed out, there are subtle differences, but I think it's undeniable that someone at the very least took a good look at the f3 frame for inspiration. You could argue it's the same with the hands, but again 'hands doing stuff hands do' - if the pose was some sort of complex gang sign I would be more skeptical, but as it is, the hand pose is basically just 'aesthetically reaching out for something', or at least that's what I always associated there..

  Reveal hidden contents

So, if I don't think the hands are a problem, why do I think the frame is (more of one)?

Well, hands just kinda exist, while frames have to be invented.

Now, I'm not an engineer and I'm not sure whether the above mentioned 'You can only reinvent the wheel so many ways.' really applies here. At least, so far, all Vinyl doll companies had been able to come up with their own frames. Is it plausible that these companies have already discovered all the possible ways one could engineer a decent frame? I mean, maybe? But as far as I understand Imomo had been capable of engineering a distinct frame for the rest of the body - it's just the arms that are similar to MDD f3. 

That's why I think that someone most definitely took a look at the f3 and re-engineered/adjusted it.

The question is whether that's a problem.

This sums up what I think pretty well.

The legality of the situation is not something I can comment on, but in general I can't help but think that if someone creates a technical design and someone else takes it, modifies it, improves on it.. it is generally a good thing.

I'm not asking for every company to go rush and copy f3, but there's 3rd party frame replacements that basically operate on the same premise. They take the original idea, tweak it, reinforce it and in the end you get a product that might fit your needs better.

Again, if it was a 1:1 copy, I would feel differently about the situation, but personally I don't see this as enough of a reason to drastically influence my purchasing decisions in the future, but of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I was thinking the same thing about the anime hand pose! As an artist I see it all the time, though I won’t rule out that they could have been inspired by dollbot, especially if the company saw it was successful and asked the sculptor to do something similar. 

One thing I want to point out is that this pose looks to be the same to me (or at least very similar to) their previous 1/6 vinyl dolls, just less “chibified”

I also saw that on the sculptors Weibo, they modeled all of their hands similarly, so I don’t think that it could be just scanned and modified. the sculptor also seemed to take pride in their work and were against copying, as they discussed inspiration or many different sources vs copying about a different artist that was called out. but ofc i don’t know them or the imomodoll company itself!

I don’t know anything about internal frames though, I just hope that they aren’t copied and are only inspired, because it is very disappointing if they are   

actually, looking further the 1/4th and 1/6th hands seem to be all similar shapes to me! :0 just to add

(still no conclusions!) 

3 hours ago, Anyalecter said:

Do you mind if i asked where you ordered her!!

I don’t mind at all! I ordered her from JanesDollLand! Unfortunately they are no longer accepting orders for her there. 

Best of luck getting her! I think it might be a good idea to keep an eye on the secondhand market when people start receiving theirs since I am sure a few owners would want to sell.

1 minute ago, chantelle said:

I don’t mind at all! I ordered her from JanesDollLand! Unfortunately they are no longer accepting orders for her there. 

Best of luck getting her! I think it might be a good idea to keep an eye on the secondhand market when people start receiving theirs since I am sure a few owners would want to sell.

Thank you!! I really hope so, now I'm just wondering if I should get the blind box tanned girls instead just because I'm so in love with that tone and can't imagine missing out on it.. 

The imomodoll sculptor just posted what seems to be a defense/rebuttal to the plagiarism concerns?

I can't understand it and my auto image translator didn't do a great job, so I'm not sure what point is being made here. Seems like they're making a similar point about the hand pose being actually quite common though.

I can't help but feel like I'm missing a lot of context here 😓

@0bsequi0us
 

Essentially they say that;

A: the hand is a common shape and it’s not exclusive to  anyone 

B: the physics and dynamics of the elbow chosen is similar to DD but not because it’s a copy, but because that works the best for hiding the double joint and smooth rotation without difficulty. So physics 

LOL, I've drawn that hand pose more times than I can count. And I agree about the arm frame. There's only so many ways to make that work. 

I'm still excited for my tan Ruby and will love her as much as any high end doll. I don't think these allegations hold any water besides maybe holding a mirror to the homogenous-moeblob-ification of anime minis, the direness of which is entirely subjective.

There's absolutely a joke here about how you can't exactly copyright the human body, and really... unless someone placed a fingernail on the wrong side of the thumb and a diff company copied THAT ..... its fingers! They can only bend so many ways!

On 4/28/2023 at 10:48 PM, 0bsequi0us said:

so I'm not sure what point is being made here

in hierogryphical sense Id guess they are trying to make a point about when doing a double-hinge joint there's going to be limited outcomes.

The issue for me being the "double hidden-hook" elbow being a near 1:1 pictation of the F3 elbow. especially if it works in a similar manner where the second joint comes into play in extreme angles.

Its amusing they put the obitsu in there as a comparsion, since in practice the obitsu hinges are visually the most distinct and on show all the time.

in theory, yes there is a limited number of mechanical solutions, yet Dollbot went out of their way to make their own thing, but then again they operate in japan.

 

but all in all ... im surprised, since there wasnt this much of hubbub when smartdoll lifted the ball-spine idea from a third party vendors upgrade parts, and the DDy torso split line.