Injection vs vinyl

ETA: Not to come off as snobbish or anything, but is it really good business sense to create a cheaper line of products for something that is known to be of high quality? Imagine if his father's shoe line were to have exact copies being sold at H&M, but in cheaper materials and sloppier finishes. Generally that type of thing makes a brand lose its "shine", if you will.

 

Well I always saw SmartDolls as being marketed towards people new to the BJD/DD hobby, not being a status symbol or anything like his father's shoe line (or most fashion lines).

 

I know the price of dolls can turn a lot of newbies away, so having a cheaper alternative can bring in some new hobbyists and customers for Danny.

I see Resinsoul and Mirodoll being thrown around as good "starter dolls" for newbies in the resin side of the hobby, I assume Danny wants SmartDolls to be vinyl "starter dolls" with the injection models, while still providing the familiar higher quality vinyl models for doll collecting veterans or "snobbish" collectors who don't want seam lines.

 

I don't know, I'm not sure about what his target market is/was? The comparison with his father's shoe line wasn't meant to be taken literally, btw. I merely wanted to point out how luxury brands that start working with cheaper main street shops like H&M often lose their attraction with the people who can afford the original brand. It is a very elitist way of thinking, I agree, but it may be important to take into consideration for any business.

 

I suppose for Danny it will come down to what image he wants Smart Doll to have in the long run.

 

My personal main concern is quality and aesthetics. So I will reserve my judgement until we know more.

Vinyl Dolls cost a lot because they are labour intensive , Injection plastic is mass production and there for will be a lot cheaper , they will look like the vinyl dolls and wear the same clothing ect , I am guessing here but I think they could be 1/2 to 1/3 the price of vinyls , This will be good to get new collectors who are worried about price into the hobby and once they get hooked (like the rest of us ) they just might save up and get them selves a vinyl doll .

Having high quality vinyls and Plastic in the same size which share the same accessories is a good idea IMO

Not only for Danny but also very good for other clothing/accessory makers/sellers .

A cheap Plastic Doll if it takes off will increase sales of clothing/accessories

 

Personally I prefer the vinyls but I will buy at least one plastic one if the price is right just to see how good they are and also for Photographing when I use Dark clothing that will stain a vinyl , once the plastic doll is clothed it will be hard to tell the difference .

The Japanese tweet says tens of ten thousands (何十万), not tens of thousands.

You're right.

Strange thing, on my phone Google Translator app gives correct "hundred thousand" whereas online Google said ten times less yesterday. Well, it happens, and looks like it's corrected already.

You don't want to know what Google is making translating something into Polish... It's horrible

 

Anyway, I was wondering if the mentioned "Design by a leading plastic model maker" and the plastic injection facility is somehow related to the Kotobukiya.

Danny is already cooperating with them and there is licensed SmD Gourai in the making.

To be honest I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the dolls increasing popularity with young children which he's mentioned a few times on twitter. I personally am absolutely gobsmacked that any parent would buy a child a $600 doll unless they're just stinking rich or something (that's just how I grew up, I honestly can't believe it lol), and outside of these rich parents I doubt many others are wanting to drop that much on a doll for a child, especially one that could stain/etc. So maybe he's hoping that he can increase that market with a cheaper alternative?

 

I also don't see the appeal other than the price though. Not only will there be seamlines, but I imagine the doll would look real tacky and shiny. I'm kinda curious to see comparisons of it though.

 

Still, if he's going to make an ''affordable'' doll line it'd help a lot to make an ''affordable'' clothing line, too...

To be honest I'm wondering if this has anything to do with the dolls increasing popularity with young children which he's mentioned a few times on twitter. I personally am absolutely gobsmacked that any parent would buy a child a $600 doll unless they're just stinking rich or something (that's just how I grew up, I honestly can't believe it lol), and outside of these rich parents I doubt many others are wanting to drop that much on a doll for a child, especially one that could stain/etc. So maybe he's hoping that he can increase that market with a cheaper alternative?

 

I also don't see the appeal other than the price though. Not only will there be seamlines, but I imagine the doll would look real tacky and shiny. I'm kinda curious to see comparisons of it though.

 

Still, if he's going to make an ''affordable'' doll line it'd help a lot to make an ''affordable'' clothing line, too...

 

Kids with these dolls? WTF? Even the injection molded ones may still run $100+ due to the armature inside, I would think!

 

Totally agree on the clothes though, absolutely. Otherwise it's kind of like games that are free/cheap for the base version and then gouge you on expansions etc.

Kids with these dolls? WTF? Even the injection molded ones may still run $100+ due to the armature inside, I would think!

 

Insert obvious comparison to American Girl dolls here. A single doll will run you $120, but you'll need a small fortune to get her clothes/accessories/furniture afterwards.....

Insert obvious comparison to American Girl dolls here. A single doll will run you $120, but you'll need a small fortune to get her clothes/accessories/furniture afterwards.....

 

I. . . kind of forgot how much a base American Girl runs. XD

 

But yeah, if he does intend for injection mold Smart Dolls to fill a niche with rich kids, I'm kind of expecting the same kind of flack Barbie gets re: body image. Kind of curious how Danny'll handle that. *grabs popcorn instead of wallet*

Though the idea of a vinyl-like doll does not attract me for obvious reasons, if this can bring more money to Danny to spend for the mainstream, it's welcome as an idea.

 

Sorry, as always, for my English

Insert obvious comparison to American Girl dolls here. A single doll will run you $120, but you'll need a small fortune to get her clothes/accessories/furniture afterwards.....

/stares at her Maryellen and Molly dolls and cries on the inside

Having that sort of machinery may open new options for making new size bodies or accessories. I really want him to start making 1/3 mech-girl tier stuff which this might aid in that happening.

 

Is this an area that hasn't really been fully explored in jointed toys (this size?)

 

The only big plastic doll I can think of right now is the 60cm Hujoo.

I do think this is definitely meant to be aimed towards the younger audience who can't dish out 600+ for the Smartdoll (but as many have said before, I don't see the price drop being that explosive considering the internal skeleton is still the same). And also, I do see the appeal in the interior parts that hold the skeleton in place.

 

As a suuuper paraonoid vinyl owner I'm always scared of snapping or dislocating the interior skeleton when it doesn't have those breaks or pegs to hold it in place.

 

And I think Danny Choo would want to implement it alongside the vinyl line is also, as he mentioned, how easy it is to produce the injection mold. From what I can tell, the difference between the vinyl and injection mold kids are not that large visually. But I guess these are things that we'll see in the future when there are in depth comparisons between the two

 

Though... while I am not bothered with seams lines considering I've lived with seamlines in resin kids, because of the obvious seam line and how the exterior is held in, I fear of them snapping in half. An example being, the smaller plastic Obitsu body I have installed for my Pullip, it always snaps apart at the bust, or anywhere really that has the seams, and lacks flexibility. Whilst I do enjoy the idea of no stainage ( considering the character I want for a particular doll wears alot of black), but if the limbs have a split issue, I think that's a bigger problem.

 

But considering Danny Choo's track record, I don't think that should be a problem, but huuu, paranoia

While this option doesn't appeal to me a whole lot (I am firmly in vinyl camp at this point), I would have loved a cheaper alternative like this when I was 14 and just discovered DDs. Same aesthetic, same wig and eye options, just a different material. I have no idea what kind of sales figures this would get, but it would've absolutely rocked my world back then, and I imagine it would have a similar appeal to the kiddos wanting to get into the hobby but lacking any kind of steady income.

 

I think the fact that SmD has sacrificed some posing ability in favor of aesthetic could help some with the plastic splitting issues at the seems, but I can't help but wonder if or how one could fix a busted/loose internal skeleton. Vinyl comes off pretty easy. Solid ABS-type plastic does not. I know they're pretty durable, but if they're going to be targeting the American Girl primary audience, I have a hard time seeing how this won't cause at least a few issues.

 

I'm really wondering how the other skin tones will translate, too. They all look pretty good in the matte of vinyl, but I imagine Danny may need to tweak the colors a bit when translating them to the material for this.

Replacing the exterior vinyl with an injection molded plastic seems like a step just to eliminate the expensive and time consuming process needed to manufacture the vinyl parts. The next step in this evolution is obvious; eliminate the internal skeleton completely. With a rigid exterior, much of the internal skeleton becomes redundant and can be eliminated. A "universal joint part" (assembly) can be designed to work at the various joints. Several different sizes might be needed to conform to the relative size of the limb (elbow joints might need to be bigger visually than wrists, etc.) depending on how much of the UJP is exposed. Then these UJPs can be made to snap into the ends of the two part exterior shell of the various body parts (in the case of "permanent" joints like knees) or slide into tubes as current shoulder joints (where there are parts that are frequently removed like arms).

The only big plastic doll I can think of right now is the 60cm Hujoo.

 

Good comparison, I think Hujoo makes dolls with the same material. I got one of their smaller dolls in ABS plastic and it's cute but doesn't have the nice feel of vinyl or resin and the material looks 'cheap' and a bit transparent. And seam lines are prominent, as mentioned.

 

Danny Choo isn't targeting the Volks/luxury collectible doll market. He's stated that Smart Doll is a fashion doll, so this move makes sense in that regard.

Just a few comments regarding this topic:

 

1. The Injection line will very likely run in parallel with the Traditional line - because SmD will continue its specific build quality. We guess this because Danny loves his children very much. This is very obvious when you just watch him in the store as he fiddles with their hair and clothes to get them just right. But don't quote me on this

 

2. Being able to produce large quantities does not mean he intends to sell SmD in those quantities. But he's been working with major trademark holders such as Sunrise on Code Geass characters. We've seen Lelouch teased and C.C. (C2) is in the works (he mentioned this in conversation). I would think about the price points for the Figma line. That's where Injection can compete at. Acceptable quality, higher quantities, lower and more accessible prices for mass market. I think this is the most likely explanation.

I agree with what has been said previously on several different accounts. When I was younger I would've loved to have the option for a cheaper "anime doll" of any sort. I could never afford them even though I knew about Dollfie Dreams from a very young age - I bet had something like this been available at that time, I would've been able to convince my mother or grandmother to buy one for me. That one then would've changed to two, then three, and probably a more expensive vinyl doll eventually.

 

PLA however is a much weaker material than ABS which raises some concerns for me. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to accidentally brake PLA materials. I'm hoping that either this is a really high grade PLA, or something is added to reinforce all of the parts. I'm really excited to see what they look like, but the price will need to be reasonable. Anything over $150 *at most* I feel would be too much.

PLA however is a much weaker material than ABS which raises some concerns for me.

Afaik there isn't single mention of PLA being used here, even for prototyping.

And I think Danny doesn't want his dolls being biodegradable

Anything over $150 *at most* I feel would be too much.

I don't think this price is possible. It is the usual price of little Azone Pure Neemo dolls, which are at least way smaller, don't have changeable eyes etc. And they are also IM I guess. I would expect the price to be like 40.000JPY or maybe even more for a fullset with a wig, eyes, clothes, shoes and stand.

150$ for body only - maybe.

Something between 30 and 40 000 JPY is probably possible for full doll (depending of clothing option).

There are similarly priced fullset dolls from Parabox, using Parabox/Obitsu 1/3 bodies (40-60cm).

Danny tends to charge premium prices (more than Volks who charges more than Parabox) so I think $150 is too low. Though I think over $400 for a doll with basic clothes, wig, etc is getting too close to the vinyl versions.

 

I wonder if he'll make the 1/2 scale Mirai with injection molds? The large size appeals to me but the potential cost of a doll that size is scary. If the cost was lowered, maybe 1/2 Mirai would be a more feasible option for customers.

 

Mirai cameo in Kotobukiya promo anime "Frame Arms Girl"

I strongly suspect they will be producing the new "Plastic Mirai".

 

Danny is tweeting about collaboration with schools (art schools, too) with SmD as models for drawing and animations. Plastic won't stain as much as vinyl in such environment. Could be a smart move.

And, well, it could be a way to sell thousands SmD.

I wonder if he'll make the 1/2 scale Mirai with injection molds? The large size appeals to me but the potential cost of a doll that size is scary. If the cost was lowered, maybe 1/2 Mirai would be a more feasible option for customers.

 

Oh, yeah, that makes MUCH more sense! ANd looking back at the pic. . . .the only thing to indicate scale at all is that set of calipers--where we can't actually see ANY of the markings.

 

And I suppose it's a fair point re: non-collector customers like schools etc., maybe--especially since those models probably wouldn't come with clothes.

 

. . . still not enough to support the up to 100K/mo production levels though. >.<

I don't really understand about injection and ABS plastic but will this make fake smartdoll possible?

Like fake figma, barbie, etc

 

I only know how resin and vinyl works till now, so don't have clue but since Danny mention making like 100k/ month is possible, maybe replicating a fake one is possible too.

Hopefully, this won't be possible in this case since it pretty sad how he already thought to make cheaper alternative for us

I don't really understand about injection and ABS plastic but will this make fake smartdoll possible?

Like fake figma, barbie, etc

 

I only know how resin and vinyl works till now, so don't have clue but since Danny mention making like 100k/ month is possible, maybe replicating a fake one is possible too.

Hopefully, this won't be possible in this case since it pretty sad how he already thought to make cheaper alternative for us

 

Hm. I think that largely depends on where the injection mold factories are based; IIRC, knockoff Figmas, Barbies, ETC are mostly done in "ghost shifts" on actual production lines after supervisors go home for the day, and they get away with it because these facilities are in crappy parts of China or Southeast Asia. If the SmartDoll facilities are in Japan, then they're much less likely for that to be an issue.

 

As for knockoff resins, resin can actually be cast by any determined Joe Schmo in his garage, since the molds are fairly easy to make.

I don't really understand about injection and ABS plastic but will this make fake smartdoll possible?

Like fake figma, barbie, etc

 

I only know how resin and vinyl works till now, so don't have clue but since Danny mention making like 100k/ month is possible, maybe replicating a fake one is possible too.

Hopefully, this won't be possible in this case since it pretty sad how he already thought to make cheaper alternative for us

 

Hm. I think that largely depends on where the injection mold factories are based; IIRC, knockoff Figmas, Barbies, ETC are mostly done in "ghost shifts" on actual production lines after supervisors go home for the day, and they get away with it because these facilities are in crappy parts of China or Southeast Asia. If the SmartDoll facilities are in Japan, then they're much less likely for that to be an issue.

 

As for knockoff resins, resin can actually be cast by any determined Joe Schmo in his garage, since the molds are fairly easy to make.

 

I'm a newbie to this hobby, so forgive my dumb question. Since the injection mold SmD's exterior limbs can essentially be dismantled, or at least, split apart, is it possible to pretty much recast it like how people do with resin BJDs? Or are there certain plastics or parts that can't be formed in a simple mold like a BJD?

 

I would think that making bootleg SmD's would be difficult however considering there is the internal skeleton to be crafted though... but then again, things like that never deterred people from making them regardless. It would suck to see someone so passionate, have his worked stolen because of a cheaper alternative.